How much is enough Part 2: Recipe for calculating your ideal income

Featured Song - Enough
by Lhagic
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Featuring an interview with
Dedrick Asante-Mohammad the chief of membership policy and equity at NCRC
Follow him on Facebook and Twitter.
NCRC Website

Season 2 of the Brunch & Budget podcast will share 3 part arcs of big topics:
Part 1 is KNOW - what are the key things you need to understand about the topic, the bigger systemic picture around it, and where the racial wealth divide fits in
Part 2 is FEEL - how do you integrate the topic into your personal relationship with money and unpack the behaviors, reactions, and habits around it
Part 3 is DO - we take you through Brunch & Budget’s 5 Stages to Financial Legacy so you have clear action steps for what to do at every stage of your finances

Hosts - 

Pamela Capalad is a Certified Financial Planner™ and Accredited Financial Counselor™ and has been in financial services since 2008. She founded Brunch & Budget to help people who felt ashamed or embarrassed about money have a safe place to make real financial progress.  Pam has been featured in the Washington Post, Teen Vogue, Huffington Post, Vice Magazine, and was named New York Magazine’s Best financial planner of New York 2019.

Brian "Dyalekt" Kushner has been a hip-hop MC, theater maker, and educator for nearly 20 years. He’s the director of pedagogy at Pockets Change, where he uses hip-hop pedagogy to demystify personal finance and help students take control of their relationship with money. He is the recipients of Jump$tart’s 2022 Innovation in Financial Literacy award. He’s rocked (performed/taught/keynoted) everywhere from conferences like AFCPE and Prosperity Now, to stages like SXSW and the Oregon Shakespeare Festival, to classrooms that range from Yale to your cousin’s living room.

Pam & Dyalekt host the Brunch & Budget podcast and cofounded Brunch & Budget's group financial planning program for POC called See Change. They regularly keynote on how art, culture, and media are used to perpetuate racial wealth inequality.

For services check out our website 

https://brunchandbudget.com/seechange/
Follow us on Instagram @brunchandbudget

Thanks for listening to the Brunch and Budget podcast. Please feel free to rate us, debate us, hate us, on Apple podcasts or anywhere that lets you subscribe. Add us to your archives and feel free to share an episode you think can help somebody out. If you've got questions, corrections or a song about money financial systems or how you feel about either please send it to letsbrunch@brunchandbudget.com We'd love some indie artists. Don't forget to SUBSCRIBE to our newsletter by texting BRUNCH to 33777. 

Transcript

Dyalekt: 0:00

Welcome y'all to part two of how much is enough this arc where we're talking about our limits at the top and limits at the bottom. And right now we want to know in this episode how you feel about it. Part two is always about our feelings, how you integrate the topic into your personal relationship with money and unpack the behaviors reaction, the habits

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 0:17

around it. Yes. And you have to have to have to unpack your feelings and relationship with money. So that you can actually interact with it in a way that's in line with your values. And it's in line with your goals too. And you have a clear idea of what your goals are, in case

Dyalekt: 0:33

you don't be doing this stuff. And the metaphor seems like a pain you're like, unpack what you mean, unpack? That sounds like a lot of work, it is unpack just means to deal,right? Though the metaphor comes from you carrying that baggage on your back, you know, I'll be like, Oh, I don't want to roll into this relationship with baggage you roll into the relationship with baggage because you ain't unpacked that sucker. You go. I can like you always on tour.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 0:52

Yeah,yeah. No, you got to put that stuff back in the drawers and stuff. Right? Exactly.

Dyalekt: 0:56

This stuff back into drawers. Get over your stuff. To make sense of your relationships.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 1:03

Wow.So in part two, we always give you a little recipe for wealth.And we also talk through the money personalities. So our recipe today is recipe for calculating your ideal income.Yes. Because the reality is that before you figure out how much is enough in terms of how much is in your bank account, you also need to know how much is enough in terms of how much you actually need to be making so that you can leave money in your bank account.

Dyalekt: 1:29

Yeah, of all the things that we don't talk about with young people and starting out what your ideal income for the work that you're doing, or the work that you want to do is like, wow, how was that? Not a thing that everybody just knows?

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 1:40

Yeah,yeah. And it's interesting. I remember when we were coming up with this recipe, I was like,Wait, like, everyone should have this number, even if you're not making it yet. And a lot of us might not be you should know what that number is. So that you have a clear goal in mind for we should be asking for I know

Dyalekt: 1:57

SOHCAHTOA I know capitals of places. I'm never gonna go. I know how to build a bridge at a toothpicks. Yeah, I don't know what my ideal income is.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 2:09

Okay,well, dialect, you're in luck,we have a recipe for that. All right. So this recipe serves one earner the prep time is a few hours to actually do the calculations and gather some of the info. And the cook time depending on you know, your circumstance could be any time between one month to one year depending on how you're able to ask for a raise, increase your rates at a side hustle, add another job, things like that.So the ingredients are one quote casual viewing Netflix show that is literally what they call it,that is a category Netflix, one casual viewing Netflix show to have in the background or whatever your preferred streaming service is give yourself an hour, one hour to review your expenses, you need three months of living expenses to get one month's average living expenses. And then that will give you one year of living expenses. Get yourself two cups of a beverage of your choice whatever that'll be a while right gonna be a while is going to be a while you're watching Netflix you got you got something to drink, you need one monthly savings amount. So that's like one savings amount per month that you'd want to ideally be able to save. You need 35% for taxes and buffer.And then one reminder that you're not actually bad at math and calculators exist. So before we even break down how to do this calculation, I am going to give you a link to download a spreadsheet that does all the formulas for you and the link is bid b i t dot L y slash s see the letter s the letter C ideal income

Dyalekt: 3:51

otherwise you're gonna get the link you were given was to some Netflix because they're raising their prices. I don't know if everybody can turn that on. You might need a right maybe maybe maybe it's just just been put on YouTube.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 4:02

That's true. That's cool. Jamie just put on YouTube your whatever's

Dyalekt: 4:05

Roku

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 4:06

unless you really want Netflix put that in your budget and add it to your ideal income.

Dyalekt: 4:11

Well, you know, I'm just saying this because you know, Netflix ain't pay us for this one. So I feel like we've said their name too many times.Yeah,

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 4:16

we have so Okay, so the directions are Step one, find your fill in the blank show. Whatever streaming service you use YouTube, Netflix, Hulu, Disney plus, Paramount plus CBS x.Remember all the ones so many all what the like cable is like a thing, right? Okay. So,directions. Find your show and settle in. We are in for a math lesson. Dialect you ready? I like math. You do like math. I actually don't like math. Y'all Funny story, a financial plan who doesn't enjoy math? I don't like math. I don't like numbers.I feel like I'm confessing something right now. But you do like recipes. I do love recipes and I love Excel because it does the math for me. So that's the first step is shill. And then the next step is add up all of your living expenses for the last three months. Now this is the part, I say an hour. If you have to split this up into multiple sessions, feel free to do so we really want you to go back three months bank statements a budgeting app, we have budgeting apps that we like mint, Personal Capital, monarch,money copilot, things like that.

Dyalekt: 5:29

I know different money personalities are bugging out hearing this, we're going to talk a little bit about how to break that down right after this recipe.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 5:35

Yes,yeah. So because this is this is the math part, right? Because you really need to know, what are you actually spending money on. And the reason why we asked you to get three months worth of expenses is because that will account for the variables,right? That will account for the one offs that always seem to happen. And so once you get that three months of living expenses,divide that amount by three, and you'll get your average one months living expenses. And we asked you to take the three months again, to give you a more accurate number for the one month. And then we want you to multiply that one month's living expense number by 12. So that'll give you the entire year,that'll give you an average annual expense amount. Okay, now take a drink.

Dyalekt: 6:20

That might be something that's in a new brand. Or maybe you just need some hydration.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 6:24

Yeah,exactly, exactly. Because now it's about getting down to what that actual number is. So the next step is to choose an amount of savings that you'd actually like to be able to set aside each month and multiply that number by 12. Right. So you have your annual expense number, and then you have your annual savings number, add those two together, and then multiply it by 35%. So you get taxes in a buffer. And then that is your ideal income amount.

Dyalekt: 6:53

So when we're talking about the kind of savings that we want to have, I know that that goes into today's discussion about what is enough,but what is enough? What's a reasonable amount? Because you know, of course, we want to be like, well, I want to put away a million dollars a second. Yeah,that would be so that would be really great

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 7:11

is the ideal income right there. Right?So I think going through an example with numbers may help.Let's do that. Yeah, let's

Dyalekt: 7:19

do that. Yeah.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 7:20

So let's say that you add up all of your expenses, and over the last three months, all of your spending, including all of your bills, groceries, shopping, all of that eating out is around$12,000 over three months,right? You divide that by three and that means that you on average spend about $4,000 a month for everything we

Dyalekt: 7:42

what streaming service?am I watching? Is it like a really niche, one that only shows telenovelas from the 90s?Oh, my God, which one is that? I don't know. But I would watch that one.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 7:56

Wow,that's a deep cut right there.

Dyalekt: 7:59

That was a Talia, she

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 8:00

was.Oh, my goodness, I love it. So I put in, in this spreadsheet, a random amount of just chose out of the air $500 a month of savings. Right, that sounds kind of nice. So then your monthly outflow, which is your expenses for savings is 4500 A month 4000of living expenses, $5,000 of savings, you multiply that by12, that's $54,000 for the year,and then you add 35% for taxes and a buffer. And 35% is a pretty solid amount, you're probably setting aside more for taxes than you're actually going to spend on taxes. So that buffer is gonna account for random one off stuff that you're not even thinking about a third is a

Dyalekt: 8:41

buffer. Sure, yeah.Well, plus taxes, right? Plus tax. Yeah, the whole buffer. I'm

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 8:46

like,no, no taxes, probably like 20to 25% of that. Right. And then the rest of it. So it's like,yeah, that sounds more buff.Yes, exactly. But I feel you Yeah. I

Dyalekt: 8:53

mean, hey, if you need that much buffer, that's another thing to feel that right. As we're saying these numbers, if you hear that, and you're like,Whoa, that still doesn't feel like enough. Yeah, add more buffer

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 9:02

buffer.And I would add more buffer to your savings. If you feel like that doesn't feel like enough.And so that's how you gauge right? You're kind of guessing and you're making it up right now. That's why the spreadsheet is fillable. So then when you add up the 54,000 of annual expenses plus savings 35% for taxes in buffer, then your ideal income is $72,900. So $73,000

Dyalekt: 9:27

Can we get a round of applause for PAM getting through a math problem? That was great.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 9:32

Excel did all that y'all you said you hate it, but it was all right.It wasn't bad. Yeah.

Dyalekt: 9:37

Well, you know, for my math non lovers out there, y'all remember you don't actually have to do the math. I was joking about the SOHCAHTOA. You can just ask the calculator to do Yeah,

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 9:44

you can ask the calculator. And so to go back to your question dialect, right. How much should you be thinking about for savings is play around with it?I just guessed the number 500And the ideal income if that ideal income number looked doable, right because there is also in the spreadsheet a place for you to put in your current income. And then it calculates the difference between your current income and your ideal income. Right? Then you can see oh, wait, maybe if I'm able to save more, or wait $73,000, I can ask for that raise easily.Right? And then you're like,Okay, wait, I can't actually save that much. If I just ask for that raise. Or you're like,wait, I'm getting way underpaid for what my actual needs are.And my ability to save is. So let me try looking for another job. And then I can actually save that amount of money.

Dyalekt: 10:34

See how the math can lead you to the problem solving that you really want to do?

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 10:38

Yeah,and this is why we want you to go through the exercise of really figuring out how to get as accurate and idea of your expenses are as possible. These are all still estimates, these are all still guesses. But when you can get down to that number,the feeling you get at the end of a spreadsheet will tell you what your next course of action needs to be.

Dyalekt: 10:58

Use a calculator to calculate your feelings again,go to bit.li/s C ideal income the S C stands for Santa Claus because parent has given you a gift

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 11:14

that's pretty good.

Dyalekt: 11:17

A lot of options per se and it's sea change and CJ CJ t change.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 11:23

I don't know if also it stands for Santa Claus. You're not wrong.And South Carolina. Anything else? Anything else you got? No we're not. So now that we've all gone through a math lesson, some people may be having feelings about right now. So let's talk about our feelings dialect.

Dyalekt: 11:40

Okay, so I alluded to this a minute ago, our money personality. Some of y'all are like, Oh, this is great. And somewhere like I need to hide away right now because this is not great. So let's start with the people who love it. Right. A complicated right. Hi, everyone.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 11:52

I hate numbers. But I love spreadsheets. Well.

Dyalekt: 11:54

That's the thing about the spreadsheets, right? The money personalities. I think it's so great because it doesn't have anything to do with your ability, right? It has to do with your comfortability, and spreadsheets will do math for you. So you don't have to be good at math to be able to use a spreadsheet. So I want you to remember that the past incomes I was saving all these things are your baselines, and you've already had anxiety about these things. I want you to remember the anxiety you have with these numbers you're talking

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 12:22

to the complicated right yeah. Oh, my call Yes. Talking to you. Oh,yes. He's looking at me right now literally, like Who you talking to right now?

Dyalekt: 12:29

It's funny usually,right? Yeah. She just lets me go through this part. And you saw she interrupters like wait,wait, why are you talking about me? Yeah.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 12:36

Well,and also for the uninitiated, if you don't know your money personalities, go to brunch and budget.com/personality and take the 32nd money personality quiz and come right back to us.

Dyalekt: 12:49

Today's episode is sponsored by us pockets change at pockets change we offer in person and virtual workshops for students from grade school to grad school professional development for educators and administrators and jams for the whole family to learn unlearn and unpack. We use Hip Hop pedagogy in the classroom to meet students where they're at and hip hop performance in the communities to dispel myths and create new common sense around money. For some free resources,go to pocket change.com/toolkit and sign up for our newsletter.Let's change the way we talk about finance. To okay, you're done, you did that you pause it,you came back. So the thing about complicated is, is about dealing with your anxiety. All of these money personalities deal with how we mess around with stress and we protect ourselves. What I need you to do is actually remember the anxiety sorry, that you have about these numbers, I need you to look at the trends. What lessens your anxiety, what strengthens your anxiety, what makes it worse. So find that inflection point of income savings and anxiety. This is the way that you deal with this. Basically, this this recipe that you were doing a minute ago, you find that place where your anxiety is at its lowest, and the savings is at its highest. And wherever those places meet. That's your number.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 14:06

Oh,it's just a graph. You know,

Dyalekt: 14:10

money tends to make you more anxious even when you have more money when you don't know what you're supposed to do with it. Yeah. Oh,

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 14:16

that is so real for all my fellow complicated is because the way that money equals security for me as a complicated, right. And so in my head, more security is better, which means more money is better. And when we're really thinking about how much is enough. If it's never going to feel like enough for me as a compensator I'm always going to be anxious about money. So until I see that number, that ideal income that ideal asset level,whatever it is, the anxiety is never going to stop.

Dyalekt: 14:46

This is why it's funny.I think complicated are the ones who are kind of the most affected by this. We wrote the most about your on this. It's why you can be making the biggest salary you've ever had in your life and you're still living paycheck to paycheck. I think nobody is more susceptible to

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 15:00

but also somehow still? Well, I feel like that for complicated years,it feels like you're living paycheck to paycheck. But also like you still have a bunch of savings, and you're still anxious.

Dyalekt: 15:11

What? You call it paycheck to paycheck, because your savings doesn't count.Yeah, so that's why the anxiety is a lot more. You need to not only have the plan, but the plan for what to do with the other stuff. That's not in your plan.Yes, yeah. So let's not allow the communicators to monopolize the conversation like they'd be doing monopoly. You heard me contemplated. So y'all need to remember that you need enough to feel good. You enough to feel so good, that you're not looking at your stuff that you're not stressed about looking at your stuff, you need to make sure you have a full f off fund. I know contemplate is like more of an F off fund than an emergency fund or a rainy day fund. So think about how long you trying to eff off. The number that we need you to have and figure out in terms of your anxiety and stress is how many days do you want to go without ever having to worry about thinking about stressing about believing that you even have a bank account? Hmm, look at your calendar, you've got that date that you set for yourself of like, you gotta go look at your money. You gotta go look at it for at least a half an hour. You got that date set?Do you want it to be a week away? Do you need it to be two weeks away? If that's the case,then you're gonna need to raise that number.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 16:28

Yeah,yeah, that's the that's the buffer, contemplate errs need a buffer because you are very good at keeping everything in your head, you're also very good at dealing with things when they hit the fan. And that buffer is going to help you have time to figure it out in a way that you haven't had before.

Dyalekt: 16:46

Well, I mean, I want to be a little more specific for my contemplate errs, you need a border, before you have a buffer you're gonna need a buffer to,but I think you need a solid line before you have that dither mess around money. Because what I found with contemplate is when I rock with them, I'm not a contemplative, so I'm going to be like speaking your feelings.But the ones that I've been around, the anxiety also comes in when they don't know. Yes. So even if you've got a little bit of buffer that might hold you down a little bit, but you're still going to be distracted,you're still going to be messing with and it's not going to be right for you until you know for sure and then have a buffer.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 17:22

Hmm, I liked that. I like that. And I think for contemplator is figuring out what that ideal income is, means that you can move on, right, you're like,Okay, now I know the number I can have it in the back of my head and not really think about it that much until I need to figure out how to get it

Dyalekt: 17:37

for my paper chases.That it off on the go set it up on the left. John set it off.Set it off. Just John set it up.Paper chases, I want to know you seen the classic at this point film set it off, right. You know what, what would you do with one last score? What would that look like then? And you know, I say like hyperbolically the movie and stuff, but paper chases y'all want to start businesses,right? You do your thing. And I want my paper chasers, I want you to think about if you didn't have to have another job, you were going off into the that.I'm 40 and retired some overtime. And of course, you're still gonna be coming up with schemes and stuff. But that one last big job. What would that look like? What would that pay you? If all your projects together? Were to be one big thing. What would it look like?Because I want to ask you if you can do that. And then after that, you never have to take a gig just because you can really I'm not making a million even a do over on this. You never have to take a gig just because you can you take the gigs that you want and only the ones you want the last big score, and you're good money. What does that look like? When we're figuring out are number four enough? I think that's where it is. Because you can always think of like, well,there always could be another thing and then you know, I did such a good job with that last person that their home you could contract and what if the person above them wanted to? Sure cool.You can. You're talented, you're smart. Well, what's the thing that you want to do? And what's the big score you need before you get there? That's your number. Yo,

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 19:19

are you looking at Willie because he's a paper chaser

Dyalekt: 19:21

a little bit of paper chase if you're

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 19:27

right,that's the thing right paper chasers? You're great at saying yes to everything and you're great at making money and you know how to make it and money is in motion for you right? And so if you can figure out how to truly feel in control of that money being in motion like die like said like this one. If you could combine all of these things into this one dream thing and not have to take five jobs let

Dyalekt: 19:55

me quick. I feel like for certain personalities we're going farther on this time but it's you know Hey, paper chasers, I want to dispel a myth about paper chasers, paper chases aren't inherently greedy people. And for the most part,the paper chasers that I've met have been very community minded.And one of the reasons why paper chasers hustle so much is that they think that the block the town, the world is going to fall to pieces if they don't have the next thing. If they're not able to pull things forward, paper chasers become their own stock market. And I want y'all to find this place where you're like,I'm good. I've done what I need to do, I can put the glove with my three adamantium claws back on the shelf, and I don't have to fight in a world that hates and fear us anymore.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 20:41

Yeah.Love it. Okay.

Dyalekt: 20:46

Are you dialing myself for last year? Tell me well, so maybe I should now tell you about yourself. The first thing I said is don't make it about you.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 20:57

Well,that's a funny thing about buddy bugs, right? For many months,the question of how much is enough was like, what's the least amount that I can have?That's enough?

Dyalekt: 21:04

Yeah, it's, I don't think I've talked about this on the show. But I always talk about this cat. I remember seeing either a film or reading a thing about these monks who believe that there's a finite amount of suffering in the world. So what they do is they give themself they inflict torture on themselves so that they can lessen the suffering of other people. And I think that's the thing that I mean, it's where like, the name kind of comes from where money monks, we tend to do that stuff to ourselves. So I need us to think about someone who isn't us.Someone who's like us, maybe it's a younger person in opposition. Maybe it's the abstract idea of the people coming up. Maybe it's people we know, in the neighborhood friends of ours, who are also money, monks that we wish would take care of themselves more,someone that we know doesn't have enough. I don't want you to look at this person, treat it like a case study and be like,okay, so if this person had enough, from what they tell me,from what I've observed, what would they have? What kind of protections would they have? Not only their income, and their savings? But what kind of stuff around them? Would they have the things that you know, I'm assuming money monks you don't have because you're waiting to make sure everyone else has so you can have? What are those foundations that they need to have for you to feel like you don't have to help them. And do that for you? Naturally number.It's actually simpler for money.Monks, I think then a lot of heads, even though this is so much easier said than done.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 22:28

That is That doesn't sound simple at all. That sounds like a very difficult exercise for money monk to do. Because in your head, I know you're thinking the whole time that I like, I know,I'm supposed to be thinking about someone else. But I also know I'm actually thinking about me. And if I'm actually thinking about me, I could really do without these things. And this the practical thing that I want money monks to do when you calculate your ideal income, is to double that number. I want you to double that savings number, I want you to add another like 15% to that buffer.Because the reality is I know that your instinct, dialect. I mean, money monks, I know that your instinct is to figure out how you can do the most with the least. Yeah. How much is enough to you? Is like a challenge.

Dyalekt: 23:19

Yeah, because there's this idea, I think similar to the paper chaser where we're like, well, if I'm increasing my capacity, then we're increasing our capacity, so everything is getting bigger. Again, this is even our money monks. This is the capitalism talking and not talking the field that you have this ever expanding egg that you need to be chasing after and go and finding the borders.

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 23:41

Today's episode is sponsored by us,French and budget. French and budget is not just a podcast,it's a financial planning practice with a team of certified financial planners and accredited financial counselors,ready to work with people who need a safe space to talk about your finances. Many of our clients come to us because someone or something made them feel bad about their money. We are the antidote to that. We do all our financial planning and coaching through a racial wealth equity lens. And we'll use our very own five stages to financial legacy to show you how far you've come and where you're headed. go to brunch and budget.com to learn more.

Dyalekt: 24:21

What can I ask you for as a non money monk who deals with money monks? I think when you're saying that the hardest part, I think the hardest part of this is really the first step. And when we're trying to find this thing for ourselves,and we're like looking outwardly, what's the first thing we have to do to make it not feel like it's about us?

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 24:39

Hmm,that's a really good question. I mean, I think that you have said this before dialect is that you are part of your community.Right? Right. You want to take care of your community and you are a part of it. So that means that you have to take care of you and you find ways to prioritize taking care of your community.

Dyalekt: 24:57

You know, I'm gonna give a specific example of that that I've done And when I came up with the whole like, oh,you're a part of your community,I went and looked up what people at my job would make not like that pockets change, but people who are in my position, yes. And I gave myself an ideal income based on that. And I was like,oh, because that's what folks should be getting. And there's the baseline. And we can negotiate up and down based around that but give yourself that at first just like look at the glass door if

Pamela Capalad, CFP, AFC: 25:27

at all. Yeah, first step first step is research. All right, I love it.

Dyalekt: 25:31

So we're gonna stop talking because we've been gone a bunch at you but we have even more better things. It's time to preach to the choir, so we know what to sing the chief of membership policy and equity at the National Community Reinvestment Coalition, Diedrich Asante. Mohammed is here to drop some ideas about what enough is and how much is enough in a racial wealth divide context.Let's listen our homie Diedrich.All right, y'all, we are back with Diedrich Asante, Mohammed and Diedrich is going to tell us some good stuff about enough because what is enough is a very difficult to grasp concept. And it's not only that it's a difficult to grasp concept, but it's something that's different for everyone. And that's individuals, but also as groups.And when you look at racial disparities in wealth, and income, being able to envision enough is very different for black people than it is for white people in this country and for all sorts of ethnic groups.And how does that break down in a real understandable way?

Dedrick Asante-Muhammad: 26:35

Yeah,yeah. Cuz I think really, you know, capitalism, you know, we can go deep into this, we won't go that deep. But capitalism,and even just the idea of money was really kind of designed,that de facto led us to a path that there's never enough,right? Like, like, like before money, right? You can only have so many horses, right? You can only have, you know, so many farms or what have you. But with but when your economic well being is not tied to a material,actual material things, but it's tied to dollars, right? You can always have more dollars, right?Particularly, it's digital now.And so you can have, you know,if you have to put it in a solid place and have dollar bills,filling up your house, you just have it in some, you know, bank account, right, so now a billion dollars, right, or a trillion dollars, you know, it expands this idea of, you know, what is enough, and there's nothing enough. And what we oftentimes gauge about what is enough is by looking at relative to others,you know, are we doing as well,quote, unquote, doing as well as them or have as much materially or much financial power as those who are around us, but as mean,you've talked about in the past,oftentimes, it might not even be those around us, it's also those we see on television, and even that reality can be a fake reality, right? Where you see,you know, people living, you know, living well and taking trips to Europe, and, you know,having you know, these mansions or what have you, even though no one you know, lives like that,you keep thinking that is making it. So, you know, so I do think we're in a society where there is nothing that isn't enough.For myself, I think what's important to help understand what is enough is to ground yourself in reality, get away from the fantasies of that there is nothing that is enough. And that's the way people live is like millionaire billionaire lifestyles, but, you know,again, like, I look at median income for the country,household income. $70,000,right, that's maybe two people making $35,000 So if my household is making more than that, and it is, well, I'm actually doing pretty well,relative to to most Americans,but you know, that's relative to most Americans, I think, you know, what we really need to do is, you know, how can I make my life more and he's get to kind of more feely touchy feely kind of things but how can I make my life more happy for myself maybe more secure for myself I'm even I'm finding for myself that even if I have some economic opportunities that could bring in more money it's more money what I need more in my life, or do I need more time to be there for my kids? Or do I need more time for myself? And if I need more time for myself then you know how can I cut some of the spending I do that is making me feel like I need to have higher income right and so Oh, well maybe I don't need to focus on and I I've never done this I don't need to focus on trips to Europe. You know, actually walking around the park you know, 40 minutes from here is actually pretty nice with my family. So I think you know, we have to, you know, break away from there's nothing enough understand the kind of material economic reason salaries that really exist on our country, and then try to find, you know, what can bring you the most peace.And it usually isn't spending as much as you can, that requires more and more dollars. So that's kind of how I balance these ideas of what is enough?

Dyalekt: 30:13

No, I get that like,and I get that you're describing, we've talked about the show lifestyle creep. And I think that lifestyle creep is something that happens more and more intensely, because you're talking about feeling stuff,with first generation above the fold people. And that often includes immigrants that often includes black people who are,you know, we're first generation making a salary, frustration,able to build wealth, build homes, get this type of education, it sounds like what you're talking about is we need to go on some sort of a paleo budget, right? If our ancestors didn't deem it worthy of us doing the stuff, then maybe we don't need to buy these things.As you're talking about what you're doing for yourself, you can use your cell phone, your family as an example. How do you recognize this lifestyle, creep stuff and keep yourself focused?Because it's one thing to shut out, like Instagram and TV and have it all but it's also a thing, you know, especially when you have families where you,there's a bit of a panic you feel when you don't have more?Because you think that it can all go away?

Dedrick Asante-Muhammad: 31:15

Well,and yes, yeah. And I'm not against making yourself economically secure. It just usually, that doesn't fit into the enough situation, right? I mean, in the not enough situation, because very few people are like, oh, people get more panic to actually by, oh,the neighbors next to me have,you know, nicer cars are sending their kids to private school basically more panicked about that than they do, oh, I don't have money in my savings account. So if a recession comes or something happens, I can't,you know, cover that expense.Right. So I think, you know,there is a space for, you know,making sure you're economically secure. But I do think one important thing is, in particular, you know, this was the racial wealth divide is that, you know, your African American, Latino, you're making six figures, are you making50,000, and you're around, you know, white, white coworkers,and they are living at a higher level than you are, even though you're making similar incomes,but because you don't have the wealth, right. And that gets into history. Right. So I think it's important to recognize and again, you know, getting into the reality, socio economic reality also understands wealth,racial wealth inequality. And why that might be it's not that you're not doing something right with your money, is it society has never been right to you. And so you need just not stop comparing yourself to, oh, I should be living like my white coworkers, but in more so how can my income, best secure my family, which probably means you not trying to live like your white co workers, because your white co workers have wealth, or the family has access to resources that you probably don't, so you have to be more economically conservative, you know, and I think one thing that's helped me is making sure you know, you are connected to working class people, if you're always, I think it's always good to try to be with people who are always making a lot more than you, right? Like, there can be a space for that to learn for that. But you start feeling like you have to live at that level.I really do. Like being in spaces where, you know, I'm kind of the median is a bunch of people making money similar me I like being around people who are, you know, more working class, and some of them have less than me, because it helps ground you that you know, this,you know, the one way you're living isn't the way everybody's living or the way people above us living this way everybody's living, but to be around, you know, how people who are making less than you are living realize, oh, people can be happy and have lesser income. People do do important family trips without spending that same type of money that you're thinking you have to spend. So having diverse economic diversity in your social relations, I think is essential for helping to really understand what is enough? Yeah, yeah, to help you understand what is enough. Wow.

Dyalekt: 34:05

So do you I think you prove to me something that I preach a lot. We always talk about money buddies, and you want to find people that you can be around and talk to about money. And one of the things we want to break out of Is This Desire that like you saying,like, I want to be around people who have more money so that I can ask them besides that and absorb and learn how to be the big money have in person too.But if you want to retain your humanity, if you want to understand what is enough, you keep the people around you who are around you and not just for economic reasons. You don't judge the people who are making less money or have less wealth as being people you can't learn from or

Dedrick Asante-Muhammad: 34:46

because you can learn a lot of important economic lessons from those who make a much less than you because again, you're buying into this idea that the reason people have a lot of money just because they made all the right economic decisions. And usually it's because wealth and opportunity We're disproportionately given to them and not given to others. And so you're really closing your learning circle by only focusing on, you know, high income, high wealth, people, you know, fine.See that it's interesting. And you also see if you pay attention, you'll see how many problems they have, right? How many financial mistakes they make, and they're not that different, then lower income people who just lower income people learn how to live a life in a positive life without a lot of the material trappings that higher income people do.

Dyalekt: 35:28

It doesn't have to be a tourism thing, like you're going and checking out people who don't

Dedrick Asante-Muhammad: 35:33

know,social relations. People Yeah,yeah, exactly. Like, I mean,joining organizations or social groups where, you know, it could be your kids soccer team, you know what I mean, a basketball team. And you don't have to always be with like, you know,there's elitist with every level, right? You can be with much more of a working class basketball team. And you know,and that's a place for interaction for me, it's religious groups, you know,like, I like going to a mosque.It hasn't been diversity of people. So no, I don't mean just go to poor neighborhoods, I mean, actually have deep social relations with, you know,different communities, different economic communities. And I think that'll help ground you in a reality and help you see, you know, what can't be enough.Yeah, it

Dyalekt: 36:14

sounds like in general,you know, diversify your friendships, and you'll be able to find less embarrassment among the people that you congregate.And that will lead to better economic outcomes for everybody.That's awesome. Thanks, Steve.All right, thank you. Big ups Diedrich for the wisdom as always, and we're gonna leave you with the song we're gonna go to one of actually my favorite cities for hip hop. It's surprising to some folks Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, for an emcee named logic it's not the light skinned in logic it's spelled differently LHAG I see and he's got a fantastic song called enough so check that out.Thanks a lot y'all.

Unknown: 37:20

We all need more trapped assist enough drugs in our communities isn't enough in our community killing us humans is not enough it's not enough we all need more trappers just enough drugs in the Community System enough dogs in the community Kim and myself we to craft youngest one that was slick in the hood but still passion when you tune in hate it when you belong in Mr. Black See the time coming to you now open your eyes and be your man first of all matter which way you swayed still and get the answers to come full weight yeah well since you love to family but not enough to want to stay out jail.You don't own the man one life you get what you want. That's the name a cop. I'm gonna bring you pizza Have you rested minutes and now some real time Google Maps sheet on that track sheet. greener pastures black roses adorn your cast, wishing death for those who only wish you were happy Miley's codeine and ginger brown addicted to felony smelling like white folks in strategy filming sound like halitosis, the cinema to signify we all need more traffic assist enough drugs and the communities just enough communities killing us just not listening. We all need more trapped position now in the community system not in the community killing myself a king was hated for half the melanin told me I wasn't smart enough hated for my intelligence, mediocrity bliss in a basic knowledge base you will pick to be a slave to smartphones placing this stuff the money will mean that like economy selling cars in your community you will spin out everything you inherited wealth but with selfish Amina hard luck story that someone else has always been the nominee famed for being stylish black power shift in Las Vegas and powerful.Chlumsky have more than doubled levels people see up so excuse me for doing everything but can the culture Imagine that you are thought and a room full of soldiers? Shepherds and sheep are scattered all say God told you to show when you had a move in a room full of volts, the sooner the sooner. We'll need more traffic assist enough drugs and the communities is enough.Community killing us not enough to snuff out we all need more traffic assist enough drugs in the communities just enough dogs in the community killing us.Open your eyes. Open your pond swatter get a shader for sale.Make them stop sticker Melanie.We are not killers, gangsters and drug dealers. Mustafa Connolly wants to cop we go have to mark data once the black devil forgotten devils native sons. You don't love my children you want to amend the pin to claim to change the words blown within the winds. Or we can't work naked design in the streets in apartments Nicola who couldn't pay his lease game I've been a Besitzer party since a baby still on the team. Finland got lucky you know what pilots you given when the gate number boss can lead them to water don't mean it ain't a dead horse is to not listen not listen. We all need more trappers just enough in the communities just enough in our community killing us humans. Not enough does not listen now. We all need more trappers just enough drugs in the Community System enough in the community killing Nash,Nash.

Dyalekt: 41:02

Thanks for listening to the brunch and budget podcast please feel free to rate us debate us hate us. Data's love infatuate us something that means you'd like us but Ryan's with eight Say what's up tells me make great stuff on Apple podcasts or really anywhere that lets you come at Reddit YouTube,I don't know just tell somebody like just knock on your neighbor's door. Subscribe, add us to your archives feel free to share any episodes that you think will help somebody out help us expand our circle so we can bring the real to more communities. If you got a song about money, financial systems or how you feel about either please send a link or mp3 to dialect dialect.com. Figuring out how to spell it is your only real obstacle. We love some informational intentional,influential songs from indie artists.